Justin Dugger ([info]jldugger) wrote,
@ 2008-09-28 16:30:00
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Entry tags:debian, gentoo, google, linux, ubuntu

Is Gentoo dying?
A recent cnet article suggests that Ubuntu is eating other distribution's lunch. In particular, one distribution is reported to be falling apart: Gentoo. Gentoo was very popular among my friends at the time I adopted Linux, but from what I've seen, the project fell apart as developers were unable to come to consensus or resolve conflicts.

From what little I know of Gentoo users and the project, it's closer to say that Gentoo is becoming an unofficial set of distributed overlays than a centralized approved project with trusted developers and so on. Gentoo's core appeal isn't under attack by Ubuntu -- building from source and customization for performance are central and remain relatively unique. If Ubuntu's focus on desktop usability or six month release cycle are appealing enough to Gentoo users that they leave the project, then build from source and customization were simply means to an end and Ubuntu has improved the Linux landscape for the better.

The article cites Google Trends as evidence of Ubuntu rocketing off to outer space while Gentoo stagnates. I'm reminded of the current 5-a-day discussion; there's a certain amount of danger to blindly trusting metrics. This Google Trend shows "Ubuntu" approaching "Dell":


(Orange = Dell; Red = Ubuntu; Blue = Gentoo)

It's a large leap to say that Ubuntu is as popular as Dell; certainly Ubuntu is a small fraction of Dell sales. One thing I do know is that Ubuntu is very googleable. All the mailing lists are archived, IRC is publicly logged, the forums even have a special search engine mode for faster indexing and engine retrieval, bug pages aren't blocked in robots.txt, and the wiki is used extensively. This wide array of information is something a tool like Google Search can aid in, and is far simpler than say searching the wiki individually, then Launchpad and so on. Perhaps Ubuntu users are heavier users of Google Search, compensating for what could be a smaller user base. We can't really infer user base size from Trends, just growth patterns.

What does seem clear from the trend is that interest in Ubuntu isn't growing as quickly today. Every new release causes a bump in search volume but there isn't as much sticking around after the release. Maybe Ubuntu works better today, so people aren't Googling their problems as often? I am, shall we say, open to alternative explanations.




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Non-Ubuntu users search Ubuntu too
[info]maco.myopenid.com
2008-09-29 01:04 am UTC (link)
Non-Ubuntu users will put "ubuntu" in as a search term instead of Linux sometimes since they can get more results that way. As you pointed out, we have a *lot* of information in the Ubuntu namespace. It's not Ubuntu-specific information in many cases, though, so I'm sure users of other distros can find lots of useful information from it.

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Re: Non-Ubuntu users search Ubuntu too
[info]jldugger
2008-09-29 01:58 am UTC (link)
I used to use "Debian" as a search term as well, so that's equally plausible.

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Re: Non-Ubuntu users search Ubuntu too
(Anonymous)
2008-09-29 06:22 am UTC (link)
Ubuntu has actually been detrimental to Debian; fracturing development and community and causing a general reduction in vitality.

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Re: Non-Ubuntu users search Ubuntu too
[info]https://login.launchpad.net/+id/wKWKGyC
2008-09-29 10:11 am UTC (link)
Not true... Since ubuntu has been around, for some strange reason, Debian releases earlier ;). Another thing. Debian remains as strong as usual. Ubuntu being playground for bringing in changes that at times are also done in debian later. happens in GCC and Python. the transitioning of ubuntu from 2.4 to 2.5 gave debian developers an idea of where things break. then it was safely implemented in debian.

Debian is a GEM in the free software world. and of all the debian derivatives, it is safe to say Ubuntu is amongst its top contributors. I don't see any other debian based trying hard to send patches.

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I was a Gentoo user, on Ubuntu now
(Anonymous)
2008-09-29 02:09 am UTC (link)
I switched from Gentoo to Ubuntu a few years for one major reason - freshness of software. Gentoo marks versions of software as stable or unstable. The problem I was having was that it was getting very slow at marking things stable, especially Gnome and Network Manager. It usually took at least 6 months from a Gnome release till it was marked stable. Ubuntu ships new Gnome releases in under a month!

You could tell Gentoo to use fresh/unstable versions but could end up in a minor version of dependency hell where you had to mark the unstable versions of other components that were dependencies and then their dependencies. I ended up with large lists of unstable versions of components and that really wasn't fun.

For me the customization side wasn't purely about performance. It was about deciding what components you wanted included. For example you may never use kerberos so you could set a use flag to always exclude it. Or you may always want h264 and aac support so you could always include that. The good news is that a lot of software now does support through shared libraries and doesn't mind if they are missing at run time. The distributor can compile with support for everything and make optional packages for the less commonly used functionality.

In my opinion and for my situation (yours may differ) Ubuntu makes very good choices about the freshness vs maturity when deciding what versions to ship, and makes good decisions about what functionality to support without harming me. For example I am pretty sure everything that can support kerberos is compiled to do so, but I don't use it and have no configuration issues because it. Similarly all multimedia stuff just works after applying Medibuntu.

I do hope Gentoo resolves its community issues and prospers. After all it means more Linux users and more exploring of ideas which benefits all distributions.

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Only if...
(Anonymous)
2008-09-29 03:11 am UTC (link)
only if Netcraft confirms it.

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(Anonymous)
2008-09-29 06:20 am UTC (link)
Popularity (users) is a very different thing from work (developers). A distribution is only dying if people work on it less.

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[info]cyb3rj
2008-09-29 11:43 am UTC (link)
When I evaluated a few "name brand" distributions, I settled on Kubuntu. I found the community had more (perhaps "just" easier to find) information and the people were friendlier. I was very put-off by what appeared to be a snootiness/snobbishness in the Gentoo forums. It felt like if a person didn't edit make files and "do it the old fashioned way", they just weren't worthy. I didn't need that.

I evaluated Fedora as well. I kept feeling like I was driving a "semi truck" to work as a commuter vehicle. It is awesome as a development environment replacement for Red Hat, but it just felt heavy for personal use -- and complicated to prune down to a usable weight.

Ubuntu and Kubuntu gave me the better sides of what I was looking for. Yeah, the base install contains a lot of stuff, but I find it is easier to figure out what I do and do not need, and remove the detritus.

In my searches, I will sometimes directly try the Gentoo FAQ and forums. Due to the nature of Gentoo, there are a lot of well-hardened folks there who really know the granular details of configuring things. But I inevitably feel like a pre-schooler in the company of PhDs. I get in, I get out, I say nothing.

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Why pick on Gentoo?
(Anonymous)
2008-09-29 02:55 pm UTC (link)
You get the exact same graph from Google Trends if you compare Ubuntu to Debian. Ubuntu is just popular with the ignition-key-and-gas-cap users, so they google it a lot.

I work with source code, so I use Gentoo. Anyone who wants to do the same is welcome to join us. We'll be here, in any case.

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Re: Why pick on Gentoo?
[info]jldugger
2008-09-29 09:57 pm UTC (link)
I highlighted this because Ubuntu was blamed for Gentoo's problems most recently. I see Google Trends used over and over again to demonstrate something, usually that it killed Debian or Fedora. Your point agrees with mine, the two projects attract a different user base, and so you can't just infer popularity or user base from search volume.

To the extent that I did pick on Gentoo, I think it'd be valid criticism even if the project wasn't waning. In fact, it's only kicking them when they're down if they are in fact down.

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Re: Why pick on Gentoo?
(Anonymous)
2008-10-19 08:42 am UTC (link)
Eh jackass with the stupid picture. Gentoo is dead, get over it.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Not soo fast, Ubuntards!
(Anonymous)
2008-11-19 11:41 pm UTC (link)
That's paposterous! Gentoo is not dying. It's merely sleeping. Just look at that poorly hand drawn graph, you can clearly see Gentoo is about ready to pounce on Dell and Ubuntu any day now like a hibernating baby barracuda. See? Just keep looking at that blue line.

Yup, any day now..

(Reply to this)

Gentoo
(Anonymous)
2009-04-02 01:14 pm UTC (link)
I would still use gentoo even if there were just a handful of users remaining. It can do things that simply no other distro can. I really don't see why it isn't more popular. Its so easy and versatile.

The only thing that would cause me to switch would be if someone created a gentoo clone with better support. I don't see that happening any time soon. Even Exherbo has their work cut out for them.

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Re: Gentoo
(Anonymous)
2009-06-16 04:15 pm UTC (link)
Easy? I think that's a relative term there. I had to go to an Ubuntu page to find a patch for the alsa drivers to get my sound to even work. While that doesn't bother me, most people don't want to expend that kind of effort to get everything working properly on their boxes. I'd argue that most people with computers don't even want to go to the effort to understand something as simple as patching some source code to make something work. I personally love Gentoo and every time I try to switch to another distro, I end up coming back to Gentoo within a week or two. If I don't like the way something is I'm going to start tweaking and I've found that when you want to do that, Gentoo is what you want. I actually break things less often when messing around :D But, with Gentoo, you have to learn a lot to really be proficient with it, and I'm still learning.

If I had to install Linux on most of my friend's computers because Windows crashed and they didn't have the install disk and didn't want to pay for one, it wouldn't be Gentoo. It would be Ubuntu. They don't know enough to tweak and really break things like I would enevatibly do if I were running it, yet they could still easily manage updates (click yes/install and type in a password) and use it for what most people use computers for. But Gentoo still has its place. If support for it really does go away, I'll be really sad because I love the Gentoo experience.

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